Episode 162: Shelli Brunswick
CEO and Founder of SB Global LLC; Executive Director of BIED Society’s Center for International Space Policy; former COO of the Space Foundation
01:03:21
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Show Notes
As part of our series on space law and the space ecosystem, this episode features Shelli Brunswick, a former U.S. Air Force officer and former COO of the nonprofit Space Foundation, now CEO and Founder of SB Global LLC. Shelli shares her views on leadership, the space economy, mentoring and sponsorship, and succeeding in a traditionally male-dominated industry.
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Relevant episode links:
Space Foundation , Symposium 365 , Center for Innovation and Education , Global Alliance , United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs , WomenTech Network , The Cosmos Economy , Space Is Open For Business , LinkedIn – Shelli Brunswick
About Shelli Brunswick:
Shelli Brunswick is an eminent figure in the realm of space exploration and innovation. With a wealth of experience spanning across a dynamic career, Shelli's profound insights and visionary perspective have established her as a guiding force within the global space community.
Having embarked on a remarkable journey from distinguished roles within the U.S. Air Force to her former position as COO of Space Foundation, and current roles as founder of her own consulting company SB Global LLC and Executive Director for the Center for International Space Policy at the BIED Society, Shelli's leadership acumen is nothing short of exceptional. Her oversight of Space Foundation's diverse divisions reflects a deep understanding of the intricate tapestry that constitutes the global space ecosystem.
Championing key values nurtured during her military service, Shelli is a fervent advocate for space technology innovation, diversity, and inclusion. Her collaborations worldwide, uniting commercial, governmental, and educational sectors, underscore her commitment to fostering a harmonious and progressive space landscape.
A prolific author and sought-after keynote speaker, Shelli's impact is truly global. She has delivered over 100 speeches and presentations in a single year, addressing audiences across continents on themes of career success, leadership, and workforce development. Her role as a thought leader and her engagement with esteemed think tanks such as the Hudson Institute and the Wilson Center illuminate her capacity to shape conversations around innovation and technology.
Notably, Shelli's influence extends to the future as well. She has contributed her expertise to research initiatives for NASA and ESA, shaping our understanding of the evolving global space paradigm. As a stalwart advocate for women in space, her accolades—Top 100 Women of the Future in Emerging Technology, Chief in Tech Award, Lifetime Achievement Award, and more—aptly reflect her impactful presence.
Beyond her professional achievements, Shelli's leadership spans international organizations, further amplifying her reach. Her involvement with entities like Space4Women Mentoring Program, WomenTech Network, and G100 Global Chair for Space Technology and Aviation underscores her dedication to nurturing talent and fostering global collaboration.
In the ever-expanding cosmos of space exploration, Shelli Brunswick stands as a beacon of inspiration, blazing trails and propelling us toward a boundless future.
Transcript
In this episode, we are focusing on the beyond of the show, in fact, beyond Earth. We have joining us Shelli Brunswick, who is a former COO of the Space Foundation and a former officer with the Air Force to talk about leadership, space, and all the amazing opportunities that will be there for this generation and the next. Welcome, Shelli.
Thank you. I'm so honored to be joining you. I look forward to talking about beyond but also how space helps us here right here on Earth.
I'll usually start off by asking people how they got into law, but in your case, how is it that you ended up in the space arena and what led to that?
I have a somewhat traditional entry into the space industry and somewhat non-traditional. I'll share that. My journey has three big chapters. My first chapter is right out of high school, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know what I wanted to major in. I didn't have money and I wanted to see the world. When you think back 30 years ago, seeing the world wasn't what it is today and how easy it is.
The best way to do all those things was to join the military. I enlisted in the US Air Force and it was fantastic. I got to see the world. I was stationed in Germany and Turkey. I have a skill set. I was classified as HR, Human Relations Personnel Specialist. I earned some college money. I got the GI Bill. It was a wonderful opportunity to figure things out. One of the greatest things was I took advantage of opportunities and I had tuition assistance, which allowed me to go to school at night completing both my Bachelor's and Master's degrees.
It allowed me to enter the second phase of my journey which was when I applied to become an officer in the US Air Force. I was eventually selected and became a space program management officer or acquisition procurement. I did ground stations and launch vehicles which are rockets and satellites. I then transitioned to being an implant rep where I oversaw programs and satellites being developed for the military.
Ultimately, I worked on Capitol Hill as a budget and appropriation liaison, securing the budget for the Air Force. After an amazing 29-year career, it was time to look for the next chapter of my journey. That led me to the Space Foundation. Fortunately, they were looking for a Chief Operating Officer and after a selection period, sometimes you're like, “I was the next one,” but as we all know in life, there's always a process to getting those next steps. There were about 176 candidates and eventually, I became the next COO of the Space Foundation. That's the three big chapters of my journey.
Congratulations. It sounds like a highly selective process for your position but also, the military is pretty exacting. That's a huge accomplishment too. I also think there's something great about your taking advantage of the opportunities to go to school and to get the Master's degree and all of that even while you were serving in the military. That's a lot to do all at once. A full-time job plus another study is challenging, plus I assume also family.
It's important to highlight that a lot of times, taking advantage of opportunities is work. It's taking on those hard projects. It's doing the tasks that maybe somebody doesn't want to do but you want to learn how to do it. It's going to school at night. It's all those things that look like work but in the end, give you an advantage for the next step in life. I always share with my protégées that you want to be prepared for opportunity. That means you need to continually be learning listening and being ready for when that next opportunity comes along so you're able to jump on it.
That's perfect, Shelli. That's exactly what I was thinking from that part of the story. Sometimes people go, “There's an opportunity that just popped up. It's like you have to meet the opportunity as well. You have to be prepared for it. As you mentioned with regard to your turn into space, that was something that you launched further from the opportunities you were given in the military with regard to the program manager position, which you may not have thought about before you had it.
Let's think about that now. I didn't elaborate on that. I gave you the first chapter and that was pretty traditional. In the second chapter, I didn't share all of it. Let me share a little bit more. First of all, I do not have a STEM degree, which is Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics. That is a non-traditional way into the space industry because most space people, especially traditionally, were STEM professionals.
The traditional way was you also came in through the military or NASA, the civil or military way. That's why I say I have a traditional way into the military, but non-traditional since I'm not a STEM professional. Because I'm not a STEM professional, the first time I applied to become an officer, I was not selected. They were looking for STEM professionals. I reapplied. I redid my application, “How can I make myself look more enticing to this selection board?” The second time, I was selected.
I want to share this with your audience. Yes, take advantage of those opportunities, but sometimes you have to try anyway even when the odds might be against you. I knew the Air Force was looking for STEM professionals, but I tried it anyway, and I had to try more than once. Sometimes you have to lean into things. Don't give up. Even if the odds are against you, try anyway and no just means not on the first try. Keep going.
Look at SpaceX. Look at how many times they have launched failures before they got to success. That's with anybody. A lot of times, we look at people's careers and we're like, “It was so easy,” but I share with you, there's been a lot of zigs and zags. I tried even when the odds might be against me. The other part is I didn't want to be in space. This is the '90s. You're going to be a Space Acquisition Officer and it's like, “What is that?”
I had been personnel, HR. I wanted to be in HR. I knew HR. My friends were in HR. I'm calling all my mentors and advocates saying, “Help me get reclassified. I don't know what this space procurement thing is, but I know personnel. Help me.” Everybody was trying to help me. One day, somebody from the Air Force Personnel Center called and they were like, “Sergeant Brunswick, the Air Force needs you to be the Space Program Manager. You're like, “Yes, sir.”
Had I had my way, we wouldn't even be talking now. It's about trying anyway even when the odds are against you and not fearing the unknown. The space thing, what am I going to do with that? I'm so grateful the Air Force made that decision for me because that started my 25-year career in the space industry. Lean into the hard jobs. Take advantage. Don't fear the unknown. Try anyway and don't give up. Keep trying.
That's a message I would say. Even several of the judges who've been on the program have said, “I kept applying. I knew that I had something to give in this role and I was doggedly persistent. Every year I would apply. If there was a new governor I'd apply again for the appointment.” Some of them 9 or 10 times before they got the position. I don't think you think that of people. It looks like this natural progression looking back.
For others looking outside, that makes a lot of sense. That just naturally happens. I was like, “No. I kept knocking on the door.” It’s figuring out, “How can I present this a little bit differently?” I'm going back and saying the same thing. I’m like, “I am a little bit different from the other applicants. How can I make that appeal a sense of value from someone who thinks they're looking for something else?”
I’m going to jump to your ten questions at the end, but sometimes we want to say what we want to say. We think about what we want to say, but it's about taking your audience into account and what they need to hear. It's looking at things from the stakeholder, customer, or audience perspective of communicating in a way that meets your audience where they are. A lot of times, we write applications or we do things. We think about, “This is so great. They're going to love this.”
We're thinking about it from our perspective, but how we need to think about things is from the other person's perspective and how will they receive this information. That helps you figure out a way that can help you best communicate that. As a lawyer, I've seen TV shows with court cases and they're talking to the judge. They're talking to the jury. You're thinking about how you connect with that audience to make your case.
Every time you have a meeting, whether it's your boss, your colleagues, your husband, your spouse, or your neighbors, you're having an opportunity. I don't want to say to make your case, but how you are connecting with them from their vantage point, and help them see through their lens what you're trying to communicate.
It requires you to take a step back and think about how you want to communicate. That's one of the things that I always recommend to people. We can never communicate as best as we'd like. We can always improve and that's one thing I think we should all work on. It is looking at things from the audience's perspective.
That is persuasion. If you want to persuade, you have to understand what would persuade someone. That was also interesting because I was thinking about how you were using all the different skills that you learned along the way to propel forward. I was thinking, “That's such a perspective that you would probably first gain from the HR perspective.” People are very sensitive to others and all of that.
That understanding informed how you thought about the application. It’s like, “I need to be looking at this from the perspective of the others who are reviewing it.” In so many different ways, all of our previous skills and training fold together and lead us to where we are even if it's not entirely obvious at that time.
That's one of the things we focus on here at Space Foundation with our education programs. We absolutely want STEM professionals. We also need policymakers, space lawyers, project managers, technicians, teachers, and more. One of the skills that are foundational to all of those things is leadership, communication, collaboration, working with others, and problem-solving. Those are skills that every person needs that help them stay sharp. You can get a STEM degree. You can get a Subject Matter Expert or a SME, but things change.
You and I were talking about how even the law has changed. Now, you can become a space lawyer. The technical piece or the subject matter expert piece continues to evolve. Those underlying soft skills, I call them essential skills, are what allow you to become a leader, help mentor others, and move things forward. I've created a new form of leadership based on this that highlights the importance that leadership is the foundation of the space industry or any industry. We need to be creating leaders. Some of them will be subject matter experts in space, STEM, law, or program management, but we all need them to be leaders.
That's a good point, especially in a developing area like that. People are going to have that role no matter what their particular expertise or specific role that they have. There's going to be a need for that kind of leadership and bringing people forward on projects. There are two things I want to talk about there. First thing is let's back up and talk about your role at the Space Foundation and the various projects that the Space Foundation is focused on.
The Space Foundation is a US non-profit that does business internationally. We have three main divisions. Our first one is our Symposium 365. The second is the Center for Innovation and Education and the third is Global Alliance. What does that mean? 365 is where our professional events and activities take place. You and I talked about how the Space Foundation does the annual space symposium. This is the premier space event to attend. It's every year in Colorado Springs at The Broadmoor.
It brings together military, commercial, civil, and international to talk about the space industry holistically at a very strategic level. We include a lot of breakout sessions and game-changers. We have a space law track. For all the lawyers, watching there is a space law track on a Monday. We also have a Workforce Development track because we have a Workforce challenge. That leads to our second division, which is called our Center for Innovation and Education. That is all about Workforce Development and Economic Opportunity.
We do kindergarten through twelfth grade. We have it on a Leadership Academy. Now you know why I'm so passionate about leadership. Primary school, middle school, high school, teacher, and professional development, as well as adult non-accredited learning, especially as we focus on entrepreneurship.
The third division is about building partners and collaborating with others. As amazing as we are at the Space Foundation, we can't do it alone. We need our team and we need to team with others. That's how we can help the entire space ecosystem move forward with the vision of where we want to go. That's a little bit about the Space Foundation and what we do.
There's a lot of collaboration and partnerships that I've seen between different organizations within the space industry and the space ecosystem that's encouraging. It's neat to see that. As you said, each person or group is doing their part. It's such a massive undertaking, that collaboration and partnership on different initiatives are important. It's nice to see a little bit of competition but also a collaboration in an effort to get the best result.
Collaboration is good as well as competition. We're seeing another space race happening. On this side, it's more commercial. We're seeing a lot of opportunities for low Earth orbit where NASA is normally bent, but now we're seeing that commercial is moving into that when the International Space Station is retired. We're seeing commercial space stations that are being awarded contracts by NASA to eventually replace the government being the leader in that space, and allow commercial to step forward as the leader in that lower Earth orbit.
You're seeing a lot of satellite activity with satellite internet and so on. There are a lot of great activities. I want to highlight to your audience. There are a lot of great things happening as we go to the moon and Mars, but a lot of that technology benefits us right here on Earth. The global space economy last year was $546 billion. It's projected to go to over $1 trillion by 2030 and over $3 trillion by 2040. What's exciting about the global space economy number is that 78% is commercial. That means its products and services we're using every day. We're talking about satellites.
You and I are using Zoom right now. Telecommunications was brought to us because of space technology. Mammogram detection, artificial food, and even sometimes tennis shoes and clothing you're wearing were designed from the space program. It's an exciting time to be in the space industry and it's going to have some exponential growth.
That growth to 2030, can you tell whether that's driven also by the race to the moon in particular? That other aspects of development in space, as you said, satellites and even some of the newer companies that want to do manufacturing or refueling in space, is that all part of it, or is it focused because of the moon race?
I would say yes and yes. When we think back 60 years ago, we think about space and two nations in a space race to put a man on the moon and safely return him. It was primarily STEM professionals and primarily male. Let's pivot that to where we are now. Now, there are more than 92 countries operating in space. It’s not big, but it’s government investment. Government investment can provide a pillar of stability.
We're also seeing all that technology from the Apollo era that's been commercialized. One of my favorite forms of commercial technology is fire-retardant clothing. My husband was a firefighter for 30 years. I'm grateful for that space technology that allowed him to come home every evening, but I shared with you about formulated food and Tempur-Pedic mattress. Sunglasses are using space technology.
There's a ton of tech transfer and if you go to the NASA Tech Transfer Office, there are thousands of patents that are waiting to be commercialized in agriculture, healthcare, energy and energy storage solutions, and communications. There are a lot of opportunities for commercialization. On our phones, we'll do our selfies shortly, but many of your phones have multiple forms of space technology in there.
We all have an app for the weather. You're taking selfies with NASA imaging technology. You're using algorithms that came from space. Think about all the companies that created apps. Think about Airbnb and Uber. Those could not function without GPS and space technology. We could not do precision agriculture without GPS. We cannot ship food from around the planet or move it without GPS. Our Airline systems are operating on GPS.
Think about how GPS and space technology are provided as a form of infrastructure free from the government. The US government put up GPS. There's no cost except for taxpayers. Now, companies are being created, and apps are now using that infrastructure of space to create new products and services. When you think about that $546 billion space economy and 78% is commercial, it is those products and services. A lot of it is Earth observation data that's helping.
Think about the build-up to the war in Ukraine and Russia. We were all seeing it on TV. We were seeing those satellite images of Russia building up on the border of Ukraine. It wasn't a secret. We could see it. We have the high ground and those were commercial companies that were providing that data. Commercial has a huge role to play in unlocking this innovation in agriculture, healthcare, education, and the finance system.
Think about our finances. Our entire finance runs on the backbone of space technology and cybersecurity. I'm going to go back to your original question to say yes. It is beneficial when the government says I'm going to do these things and they provide a funding stream that's stable and secure. That allows companies to invest. This is part of that program management that I learned when I was in the Air Force. We're providing some stability.
However, there are also companies that then create other products and services. Think of SpaceX. Initially, they wanted to compete in building a rocket. That was going after government funding, but now, they've created a new revenue stream with their satellite internet, which can now provide internet connectivity around the world. That's a different revenue stream. That's way more commercial.
Governments can use it, but so can individual citizens. It’s less likely, but they are. There are individual citizens using SpaceX rockets too. We now do private space tourism and go to the moon. They're supposed to be a billionaire doing that. We are seeing that crossover now, where the government provided the initial funding apparatus but then the companies now move more towards a commercial free market system, so you see that.
That is the role of government. It is to provide that stability of funding where things are risky, and it doesn't make business sense for the company to make those investments. It's the role of government to do those missions to Jupiter, Venus, and everything because those are research. They benefit humanity and do those things that are very challenging and investing like The Rovers to Mars.
There's not a business model right there for a company to do that independently. With time, you are going to see that happen eventually as things become more mainstream. Think about aircraft. When aircraft first started, they were from the war effort and then they became commercialized. Think about space the same way. Many of it may have gotten its start from government stable funding. Eventually, it creates a commercial application.
That's a good way of describing how the role of public-private partnerships started to evolve. Eventually, they will be able to have their own revenue streams and won't have that reliance on government funding. This will then allow the government to fund other new ventures that don't make business sense at that point in time but are important for humanity and for the next advancements in space.
Since many of your audience may be lawyers, this opens that door for patent attorneys and IP attorneys. We got the space lawyers but when we look at all this technology, you've got IP. You have tech transfer. It's important to have patent attorneys evolve in this. Artemis has posted the plan for Artemis, where the government has technology where they need tech insertion.
Tech transfers come from the government to commercial, but there are also places for tech insertions for companies to put their technology into that government timeline. As you know, as a lawyer, you always want to protect your IP. You want to protect your technology. There is a lot of room for lawyers in the space industry and multiple facets of it.
From the examples you've given, we think about the innovations coming to Earth. You've also talked about the layering upon that of what kind of companies can then use some of that and move beyond it like you were saying with the GPS technology and things like that. Sometimes when people might be a little uncertain, they'll say, “Really? The space economy could be that large. What?” They're thinking about that slice of what we call new space in terms of the commercialization of being out there in space with satellites or other launch vehicles and things like that, but it's much broader than that is what you’re talking about.
A great place to reference that is your audience could bring up the NASA Tech Transfer Office right now. Our government has these patents and people can apply for that patent and a grant to try to start commercializing that technology. It's in agriculture, healthcare, energy, energy, and energy storage solutions. There are thousands of patents and it's not just NASA. There's also the Department of Energy. There's the Air Force Research Lab.
Our government has thousands of patents waiting for people to apply for commercialization. If you're an entrepreneur or an investor, here's a treasure trove of things that you could look at commercializing. It's not just the US. The European Space Agency also has a tech transfer office as does the Japanese Space Agency. The United States was founded on entrepreneurship. Here's a great way to reinvigorate entrepreneurship with technology, create amazing jobs, and unlock space technology to benefit our everyday lives.
That’s some good advice for IP lawyers and those who might be interested in going into some entrepreneurial work themselves. I wanted to shift to the leadership component that you talked about previously. You said you have a vision of what that entails and what strong leadership is in this setting. I wanted to hear about that and then also hear some of your advice for those who are navigating, whether it's law, business, or some other setting, especially women, in terms of how they can navigate that into leadership roles.
I've been in the space industry for 25 years. I've seen that in a lot of leadership styles. There's the Hersey-Blanchard, telling, selling, and participative delegating. We have servant leadership. We have a lot of leadership styles. What I've seen that we need in today’s world, this global world, or this social media world is we need Global Transformational Leaders. I call it GTL.
What a GTL has is three main traits. The first trait is they’re inspirational. The second one is they’re authentic. The third one is they have gratitude. What I mean by that is the inspirational one is we need to be inspirational leaders. We want to inspire others to follow us. Think about the people that inspire us to follow them. We can see kids who want to create climate change movements, inspiring a generation of kids to want to be part of this climate change and climate awareness.
We're seeing Jane Goodall inspiring how we can protect the planet and wildlife. We want those inspirational leaders. When we think about inspirational leaders, what do they have? They're very good communicators. They're able to see a vision and they're able to communicate it. Remember when I shared they're able to help connect with that audience. In addition to being a visionary, they're also able to execute. “Here's the vision but how am I going to get you there? How do we all get there together?”
They're positive because you're always going to have setbacks. You're going to have anomalies. How do we keep moving toward that vision? Think about it. When you hear an inspirational leader, don't you want to follow them or do you want to follow somebody who's like, “Follow me.” In today’s world, we want to follow inspirational leaders. We also want those authentic leaders. You are who you are. It's in your DNA.
How many of you have heard leaders and you're not sure they're saying that or whether that’s the talking points they were giving? We can see that on TV, somebody reading the teleprompter. They're not authentic. They haven't embraced this message. You hear an inspirational leader who's authentic. I once had a mentor who said, “Shelli, you’re Shelli. It's your DNA. No matter where you go, you're Shelli.”
You need to be you no matter where you go. You embrace what your message is and what you are passionate about. That authenticity connects you to others. Authenticity is building trust. It's building collaboration. Its integrity. Its relatability. It's important that not only are we inspirational but we're also authentic in that inspirational leadership.
It's really important that not only are we inspirational but we're also authentic in that inspirational leadership.
That last trait is being grateful. We can hear leaders and you can tell that they're boastful or maybe they're not grateful. No matter where you are in your journey, you can be grateful for something. We all are going through trials and tribulations. Don't believe social media. It's not true. The world is not perfect. My life is not perfect that's on social media. Every day, we're struggling, but every day we come home and we can say, “What are the three things I'm grateful for?” How do I write a gratitude journal?
When you do that, it can even rewire your brain to think more with gratitude. I had an amazing role model and leader when I was in the Air Force, Major General Al Flowers. He's the longest-serving airman in the United States Air Force history. His family started as migrant farmers and he became a two-star general in the Air Force. He has a book out. For anybody who wants to get his book, Major General Al Flowers, longest serving airman in the United States Air Force history.
He talks about servant leadership. A servant leader is someone who no matter where you are, how are you helping others. How are you inspiring others to accomplish their goals and objectives? By helping them, you're also helping to accomplish your goals and objectives. Being that servant leader and having gratitude. A little different style than maybe what you've heard from Hersey Blanchard, and I'm not saying those are incorrect. I'm just saying in the social media world where we live now and globally, you need to think about being inspirational, authentic, and having gratitude.
I have different thoughts or follow-up questions about each of those. The first thing I thought about being grateful is there's a certain aspect of humility in that too. There is a recognition of maybe something larger than yourself, but also not having this huge ego about your role.
I'm going to say yes. When you all pick up General Flowers’ book, he has what he calls flowerisms. One of his flowerisms is HEART and H stands for Humility. There's a fine line between humility and self-confidence. You talked about women. Sometimes, as women, we need to find the balance between humility and self-confidence where we're not deprecating, undermining, or marginalizing our values.
There's a fine line between humility and having self-confidence because if you're not self-confident, then you're not going to be an inspirational leader. It's not just women. I would say underrepresented groups that are looking to be in key leadership positions walk a fine line between humility and self-confidence.
That's an important point that when we're talking about humility, it doesn't mean that you're not confident. It's just that you're open to things and open to knowing that you are fallible. Even if you're confident, maybe we need to change something or we need to take a different direction. The data shows us at this point that we need to do something else but be humble enough to say, “We got to do something different.” The other thing I think about inspiration is being passionate. When you're passionate about something or you love what you're doing or see that there's a purpose or meaning to it, you inspire others with that passion. I think that's part of it.
I think it's critical to inspire others. Steve Jobs had a saying, “The people who think they can change the world usually do.” Those people are not just confident. They're also inspirational because what I've learned in leadership is I can't do this alone. I'm not the COO of Space Foundation doing this by myself. I'm doing this with an amazing team. They're part of this journey and they're doing this. They're creating this. I'm part of the team getting these things done.
We have to understand that an inspirational leader is inspiring, not only the world. They’re on social media inspiring the movement, but they are also inspiring their team. Think about Elon Musk when he started SpaceX. He was like, “I want to create a reusable launch vehicle.” He had to inspire his own team. You have to not only inspire externally, but you have to inspire internally as well and keep that motivation.
If you're a change agent or you want to unlock a new opportunity or technology innovation, think about the difference AI or Quantum is going to have in our world. You are inspirational, but you're not going to be doing that by yourself. I talked about all the amazing patterns that you could commercialize from NASA. You could have an amazing entrepreneur and an investor. At the end of the day, that person is hiring a team of experts who are going to commercialize that technology and bring it to market. You have to look at everyone you're inspiring. That whole 360-degree view of inspiration.
That's important, and that's a good point. That's something that as lawyers and in law school, we're not trained in that as well. We're solo actors reading the cases and doing the work. It’s not the same as being in a business school or other things where leadership and teamwork are taught. We tend to learn those things later as we get out and work with teams and realize, “It isn't just me. We have to figure out how to work together towards a goal.” That's a good reminder, especially for those with the legal training.
The last question I had was about the second one which was being authentic. Do you think that that is something that comes over time? I think it takes knowing who you are and being authentic about that. It doesn't happen in kindergarten. Let's put it that way. How do you encourage that to get to the point of being authentic sooner in your career than later?
It's about understanding ourselves. Emotional intelligence plays a big role. Emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and then how you interact with others. I think that authenticity is critical, as well as some of the things I said. What is the message, but how do you meet your audience where they are? Are you saying what you believe?
I don't necessarily follow this advice but people say, “Follow your passion. I don't know if following your passions is the right nomenclature that we want to be saying. Maybe we want to adjust that to find something you connect with that you can be authentic with because if I followed my passion, I wouldn't be in the space industry. I'd be in personnel. I'd be an HR still. I thought that was my passion.
I don't think following your passion is quite the right thing. It's more, “How do you know what your values are,” and when you have an opportunity, you're able to connect with those values. I truly believe what I share with you about leadership and about creating more pathways into the space industry. I'm passionate about it.
This is who I am authentically. If this wasn't my message, then this shouldn't be the message I'm giving. That's the other part about knowing yourself and being true to yourself. Knowing where your best value lies and how you can unlock your authenticity. It wouldn’t be following your passion, but finding the path that's best for you.
Follow your passion, but find the path that's best for you.
I think about it as feeling like speaking from the heart in some way. When that happens and when you know that it's coming from there and everything feels in alignment, then that's the right place for you to be at that point in time. I think it has a meaning too. We always want to make a difference or have some kind of meaning in our work. Do you feel like you have meaning in it that helps direct the sales about where you should go next?
For me, I'm at a different point in my career. I'm in the third chapter. I don't know what the fourth chapter is. The third chapter is, “How am I giving back? How am I making a difference?” I came from the military with over 29 years of being a servant leader, serving my country, and serving others. To continue in that capacity now is natural for me.
It is about me, giving back, wanting to inspire the next generation, helping others find their way, and breaking down those barriers that may prevent others from coming in. Finding where you are in your journey helps give you meaning. Everybody is at a different point. Thirty-seven years ago when I was going to school at night, I don't think I was at this point. I was at a different point but that's okay.
That's an important point to me because it can change. As you change and grow, that can change and to pay attention to that.
It's about self-reflection. Going back to that emotional intelligence and being able to reflect, I do reflect a lot. I reflect a lot on how my interactions are with people. If things go well or don't go well, how could things have been different, and what would I have done differently? You don't want analysis by paralysis either. I think it's important to reflect on things. If you had an interaction with your boss or colleague or an employee, and it didn't quite go the way you thought, what could you have done differently?
You will engage with that person because these are long-term relationships, whether it's with your spouse, your family, or in the professional industry. How can you engage differently next time to be that authentic leader? Authenticity is about connecting with others, building trust, and relatability. How can I connect with you? Nobody is perfect. I'm sure if people went back to the first interviews I did, I wouldn't even like watching them because I wasn't authentic yet. I wasn't comfortable in my own skin.
Authenticity is about connecting with others, building trust, and relatability.
I had those notebooks in front of me and talking points. I was nervous. As time has gone on and I feel my message and my authenticity, I am now able to hopefully connect with people where they are and whether they want to come in the space industry or they want to be a woman in tech or they want to go into space law. They find a different way to find their path.
For me, it's not just about coming into the space industry, although I think it's fabulous. It's about helping people find their pathway to where they want to be. There are a lot of amazing industries to be in. As I say, you're already in the space industry. You probably don't know it, but my goal is, “Do I inspire you to think about space,” and maybe you end up taking a different pathway and that's okay.
You touched on this a little bit in talking about the leadership principles. Maybe you could share a mentor in your career who made a difference and what that looks like. Sometimes people have a perfect image or they think this is a mentor. Sometimes, they miss mentoring opportunities because they don't realize, “That was also something that was helpful to my growth.” Maybe you can give an example of your experience and what that looks like.
We think of mentor and that's a catchphrase for a number of things. For some of those, I would like to break into role models, mentors, and champions. The role models can be people you follow. I look at Gwynne Shotwell from SpaceX as a great role model. There are many others like Deborah Factor. There are a number of amazing space women leaders.
You can follow these role models on social media. That's why I also say it's important for role models to be posting on social media because people are following them. People are watching you. You should be trying to create a pathway for others to follow in your footsteps. I think it's important to be a role model. Sometimes, that's the first step for many people. It is to see someone like themselves. I'll give you an example.
One time, I did a mentoring session for the WomenTech Network, an organization I support. It was a session with women space leaders from around the world. One of the women was a space lawyer from Africa. After the webinar, I got a note from a young woman in Namibia. She told me how she was watching the webinar. While she was watching it, her mom came into the room. She looked at her and said, “Why are you crying?”
She realized she was crying during this webinar. She said, “I had been told that I could never be a space law from Namibia. That's impossible. It can't happen. Here I am watching this webinar, and here's a space lawyer from Africa.” You can be a role model and you don't know it. How many people are watching you and you're inspiring them to pursue what they think is their passion or their dream to be a space lawyer? That's an example of a role model.
A mentor can be the batting coach. If you want to become a better batter, you go to the batting coach, and they help you become better. There are some great programs. The United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs has a space for women mentoring program. Even though it's a space for women, it's open to men and women.
The WomenTech Network has a mentoring program for men and women to help them in technology. You can find a mentor who can help you as a life coach. A lot of times what I've learned is people want to improve in a certain area. They want to be an entrepreneur. They're trying to build connections or they're trying to grow their business. It’s finding those mentors, and there are great mentoring programs as I mentioned.
That third one is champions. Champions are people who can help you get to the next step. In my life, I have an amazing champion. I'll call him The Godfather. When I was in the Air Force, remember, I was that program manager. I worked at a program office. We looked at creating satellites, rockets, and ground stations. I was working for my boss who worked for The Godfather. This was when I was in the Air Force, and I had volunteered.
He needed an executive officer to fill in while his exec was on vacation. I volunteered, “I'll do it.” Remember, take on those hard jobs and volunteer. Being an exec in the military means you're working twelve-hour days. You're there before they come. You're there after they leave. I'm sure it's similar to being a clerk. You're getting that experience but you're getting access to that senior leader.
He knew me because I volunteered. Here's what made the difference. One night, there was an event that was honoring the military people who were doing acquisition at the Pentagon, and there was an evening reception. Nobody in my office wanted to go. It was after work, “Does anybody want to go to this?” Nobody wanted to go. They're all going to go home. I was like, “Do I go home too,” but I didn't. Instead, he advised that I get out from behind my desk and go to this event. I didn't know a lot of people but the people I knew, I went by and said, “Hello.” Guess who was there? It’s The Godfather.
I went over and talked to him. He was talking to somebody else. I walked up and he's like, “Brunswick, what have you been doing?” I said, “I'm waiting for you to help me find my next opportunity. The person he was talking to was the person who worked on Capitol Hill for him. He looked at that person because that person was telling him, “Sir, I got a new job. I'm going to go off to command. You need to find somebody else to fill my position.”
He looked at that person and he looked at me and he looked at that person. He's like, “Brunswick, how would you like to be a legislative liaison?” First of all, he didn't give me the job. What he gave me was an opportunity to interview for the job, which I did get. Everybody thinks, “You got it.” You still have to interview. You have to prep. You have to prepare. Ultimately, I did get that job and it changed the course of my career.
Had I not gone to work on Capitol Hill as a legislative liaison, I don't think I'd be where I am now. I would have gone back to being a program manager. I’m probably back out in Los Angeles or somewhere else. I would have retired and I would become a program manager working at a company like many of my good friends have done. That would have been my career path. That’s a totally good career path too, but because I got out from behind my desk and volunteered for the hard assignment to fill in as his exec, he got to know me, so when the opportunity came, I was prepared to meet it. That's one of those things where you need a champion that helps you catapult to the next level. You need those role models, mentors, and champions. I hope those examples illustrate each of those.
You need those role models, mentors, and champions that help you catapult to the next level.
That's a great breakdown of it and how the different roles operate. I love your story of getting out from behind the desk and going to that. There are so many times when you don't even know that the timing is perfect. Somebody saw you at an event where they learned about some openings. When somebody asks, “Who would you suggest?” They suggest you because they saw you. All of your work had to happen before then, but you might not have been top of mind if you weren't right there at that time.
There's so much serendipity to that. It shows why it's important to get out and do that. A lot of people can relate to, “Should I go home? No one else is going? Why am I going? I don't even know that many people. What is the point,” but it's so important to get out. I always say in the law firm context that more than the people in your hallway need to know you.
Sometimes mentors in that scheme of things are good at helping you navigate or guide you in how to get out there. If you're wondering, as you're thinking about leaving, go by the mentor’s office, “Should I go?” The mentor will say, “Yes. You need to get up there and meet people. You can go for half an hour and if you're not having a great time or whatever, just slide on out. You don't have to go there for a long time,” but it's so important that others know you either by working with you or seeing you in these other environments.
From that anecdote as well, it sounds like by your being there, you showed that you're open to being out and to doing the kind of work that someone in that legislative role would play. It all came together. That's a great story and a great anecdote. It's amazing how things like that happen in a career. You do your part but then have someone see the potential in you also. That's part of what the role of The Godfather or the sponsor has. They see more in you and how you can serve than what you might even see in yourself at that point.
That's one anecdote. The other thing I'll share with you and the audience is sometimes those mentors are people that you know. Here's another tidbit I have. When I was going to retire, I was thinking I was going to become a legislative liaison or lobbyist or go back to being a program manager. The job came across my desk, Chief Operating Officer of Space Foundation. This was like, “What is this? Do I want to apply for this? Do I want to do these other things?"
I mentioned it in my office. We were in an open cubicle. I wonder if I should apply for this. One of my good friends Vanessa said, “Never disqualify yourself from something you haven't been offered.” Here I was already going to disqualify myself because this wasn't fitting what I thought I should do next. I opened the aperture and applied and here we are. I always think about how many times we sometimes disqualify ourselves. Some people may say it's an inferiority complex or we don't think we meet 100% of what's on the job sheet. How many times, do we disqualify ourselves without thinking about it?
A couple of more lessons about, “Apply or try anyways.” Don't disqualify yourself. Get out from behind your desk. Volunteer for those hard projects and network. There's a lot more to be successful in your career than sitting behind your desk and typing away. Sometimes people think, “If I just do a good job, people will know.” Yes, and it doesn't hurt to do these other things too.
I love Vanessa's advice there. That's good because so many times, women tend to do that. We'll go, “We have to check everything. We didn’t check everything.” Even in that case, it's something that's a little unique or unusual. It’s not a path that would be traditional or that you would have thought of necessarily. Having her nudge you along the way and say, “Don't put yourself out of the running.” Maybe it's something that you would enjoy, be a great fit for, and would find a lot of meaning in. You don't want to take yourself out of the running for that before you even find out what it would be. That's great that someone was there to say that at that point in time as well.
It’s a good thing I talk out loud, right?
Exactly. It’s good you raised that. It’s a good thing that she’s like, “Don't do that.” It's so much easier for someone else to say that to us. To say that to yourself is hard. Sometimes, to have that reflection helps but to have someone say, “Look at that too. Look at a lot of different things.” You seem very well suited to the position so it worked out well. I enjoyed this conversation with you. You've had a lot of good points for people to consider in their own careers, to be the best that they can be, and to have the most meaning and joy in their careers. From all of that, there is a certain amount of joy, which is always good.
I always figure, if I am going to share, who my audience is. Am I going to connect with them and be authentic? I think it's important. I'm grateful you invited me. I shared it with you at your show. Thank you so much for the wonderful mug and bag. I love looking at the book you wrote about your mom's advice. I thought that was amazing too. Congratulations to you.
Thank you very much. Sometimes it seems like the right thing to do even if you don't know anything about it. I didn't know anything about publishing or anything when I decided to do it, but you have to take that leap. I think this will have a positive impact even on 1 or 2 people or on other mothers and daughters. It’s worth it to move forward. Taking that leap is another good example. “I don't know anything about that.” It doesn't matter. Just figure it out along the way. I'm going to get to some of my lightning rounds. Which talent would you most like to have but don't?
You did pre-share these questions so I did a little thinking. I'd love to be able to speak multiple languages. I know people who are fluent in twelve languages. When I share with you about wanting to connect with people and meet them where they're at, if you can speak their language, I think that's so helpful. Unfortunately, with time and talent, I'm not quite there with that. I'm barely good with English.
That would be helpful it seems with the range of people you encounter too. Also, in different languages, you can get a sense of the culture from that as well as how things are described and things like that. It would help to meet people not only in their own language but also understand a little bit the cultural thinking. Who are some of your favorite writers?
I have a diversity of writers. I thought that was a great question. I listen to Audible. I listen to books at the gym and I read hardback old-fashioned books, but I like a diversity of books. They could range from Dr. Jack Gregg's The Cosmos Economy or Space Is Open For Business to leadership books. Admiral McRaven just came out with a new book. I also like to read fun books about technology and children's books. What I've done on LinkedIn now is once a month, I like to post a book that I'm recommending that I either listen to or read. I share with others what I'm thinking. It's a very diverse kind of group. We're all different thinkers and we should enjoy different types of books.
I think that's great. I like the eclectic nature of the reading list. I thought it's always good to learn of new books or new authors. Also, what people are interested in. It's an interesting insight into people's minds and what they're curious about. I also post some of the book recommendations on the website so others can see them lie, “I'm thinking about a book, but I don't know what it is I want to read. Let me look at some of these recommendations and see if there's something that’s going to hit my fancy or a new author that I can learn about.” It's fun to do that.
The other one is Major General Flowers’ servant leadership. That is great too. A number of great books, and if you follow me on LinkedIn, I posted one that a good friend wrote the foreword for. It's about cryptocurrency in Africa and how that could help the development of the African continent and everything. I’m not totally a crypto expert, but I thought it was interesting.
It’s always interesting to think about new things and new challenges. Who is your hero in real life?
My hero is my mom. My mom was a single parent and she was in the manufacturing sector. This is way back when being a single parent or being a woman in a non-traditional role was not celebrated like it is today. My mom taught me that I could be or do anything I wanted. I can go to school, be smart, and try hard. My whole family. My Grandma Rose was also a pioneer. In addition to being a farmer, she was a tavern runner. She ran a tavern. She was an entrepreneur.
I come from a long lineage of strong women, hard workers, and entrepreneurs. We never thought about gender roles. If you think about it, my mom and my grandmother ran a farm. My mom worked on a farm. It doesn't matter if you're a boy or a girl working on a farm. You're all working on the farm. They instilled that hard work ethic in me and demonstrated that I can be or do anything I want. I just have to work hard at it.
You have to do what you have to do. You start the business. You do whatever it is. You've got to make things work for the family too. For what in life do you feel most grateful?
I'm so grateful for my husband. I'm so grateful for family first of all, but especially my husband. My husband and I met later in life. He was already a retired firefighter when we met. I'm still working. I was still a captain in the Air Force when we met. He has been super supportive of my career moves and the military.
If you think about that, it’s challenging when your wife is ambitious or a leader and you are the supporting spouse. We're used to it the other way where the woman is the supporting spouse. I thought this was interesting. We came back from a trip to Turkey where I was a guest speaker at a CANSAT Program for ICESCO. ICESCO is the Islamic World Educational Scientific and Cultural Organization. They have 54 member countries.
One of the women from Cameroon wanted to interview me about being a woman who had a career because that was not normal. She wanted my husband to be in the interview because she wanted to highlight to young women and men that women can have careers. They can be leaders. They can be married, have families and a husband can be a support.
The CANSAT Program took place in Turkey. We're doing an interview with a woman from Cameroon to talk about being a space leader and my career. Also, I was able to have a family and a husband. My husband got to talk about supporting my career. Here we are, non-traditional role models, doing an interview for somebody in Cameroon so we can slowly help other women and girls look at new career opportunities. It might not be in the space industry. It just might be allowing women to have careers. I share that with you. Also, for a husband to be comfortable being that.
Did he enjoy doing that?
He did. He's amazing. A lot of the participants that were there were from the ministries of education. One was a fifteen-year-old genius who already had three patents. It was a very diverse group of participants in this program and they enjoyed talking to him because he has experience. He was an assistant fire chief. He had led multiple things. He'd started the fire department's EMS and everything.
A lot of people enjoyed hearing his experiences in addition to hearing mine. He had something to add to the table. I have to be grateful for him because I do realize, that may not be the most comfortable for some men to support their wives. I'm grateful that my husband is a champion for me and does believe in me. He does encourage me and my success is his success too.
I can hardly keep up with you, Shelli, with all the different places you're going, where you're speaking, and all of that, but I did see your visit to Turkey and all of that. However, I didn't know about this particular program and that's cool. That's neat that he was an integral part of that particular presentation. Also, hopefully, it’s something that will spark things for others.
Whether they communicated a lot with him or not, remember, he's in that first category as a role model too. Here's a new role model for husbands who can support their wives, and that it's okay to be different. Eventually, maybe in 10 or 20 years, it becomes a normal thing. Here he is. He's being a role model.
It's cool that he embraced that.
As a matter of fact, our relationship also works. Firefighters know how to cook. He's the cook in our family.
That's great. Perfect.
He doesn't want to eat my cooking.
Given the choice of anyone in the world, who would you invite to a dinner party? It could be people who are with us or not with us. It could be more than one person.
Initially, my thoughts are with Angela Merkel because here we have the first woman to ever hold the chancellorship in Germany for years and navigate the internal politics, not only of Germany but helping to be a leader of Europe. I'd also see Queen Elizabeth with her role and her leadership. I'm sad to see her go. We've seen a lot of great women leaders depart the stage over the last few years with Angela Merkel and Queen Elizabeth.
Both of them would be amazing to have dinner with and learn from their experience. What we see externally, everybody thinks life is charmed. Behind the scenes, when you peel things back, it's not the same. I also saw a documentary on Margaret Thatcher about how her role came to be, her rise, and everything.
A lot of things require the support roles and the supporting husbands and timing. Life is also about timing. It was the right time at the right place. You had the right skills, just like when I ran into The Godfather. I think Angela Merkel, the Queen, and also Margaret Thatcher. I can name so many more amazing women who have led the world, not just Europe, that I'd love to sit down and have dinner with. Just to hear their stories and how they have helped all of us who are now the next generation paving the way for the future generation. That's how I look at how we're passing that baton.
I heard you when you said that. There's a point at which you turn and are more interested in the next generation. You're comfortable with what you've accomplished and continue to accomplish but you're interested in the next generation. A lot of us are like, “We're focused on that now.” What can we do to bring others up?
It doesn’t mean it’s over. I'm going to highlight that my grandmother lived to be 96, so I probably have another 40-some years to go. You never give up or you never say, "I've peaked." I say chapter four is a question mark. I don't know what's next but I'm ready because I continue to be a good learner. I network and build my skillset. I am ready when the next opportunity comes along, but I also know that being that servant leader, I want to pay it forward and I want to help others the way my mentors and the Godfathers helped me along the way.
Continue to be a good learner, network, and build your skill set so you are ready when the next opportunity comes along.
It’s that sense of gratitude that you mentioned. The only way you can pay those people back is to pay it forward. I loved your dinner guests because they reflect so many different styles of leadership amongst different women of different times. What an interesting discussion that would be in itself. The culmination of all of them would be an interesting dinner party. The last question, what is your motto if you have one?
Keep reaching for the stars.
That’s perfect for your position, interests, and everything. It exemplifies what you've done in your life which is inspiring. Thank you so much, Shelli, for joining the show and sharing all of your insights.
You're very welcome. Until next time, I look forward to seeing you around the galaxy.